Diplomacy has its own codes. It is imperative to know these in detail to avoid being exposed to difficult situations and putting one’s credibility at risk when defending one’s interests. Apparently simple things, such as having a meeting with a foreign political leader, shaking hands with him or her in public, or making a declaration, require a deep knowledge of the traditions both of the host country and of foreign relations in general. It is not enough to have the determination to do something, or to present one’s own views and interests properly. It is also necessary to know how to read an interlocutor’s position and to select the right moment to act.
However, this all seems to have passed by those in charge of foreign relations at the Generalitat of Catalonia, from the Counsellor of the Presidency Francesc Homs to the new Delegate of the Generalitat in Brussels Pere Puig, whose pro-independence enthusiasm tends to lead them to breach one of the golden rules of diplomacy: not to expose one’s political leaders to a public failure. This year, Artur Mas made two visits to Brussels (one in April and the other in September) to explain to EU officials the ongoing self-determination process in Catalonia, presumably to try to convince them of its benefits. The terminology involved has clearly changed (compared with the beginning of this year) to make it more acceptable to European leaders: instead of the “internationalisation of the conflict” we now have the “process of the right to decide”. The first term combined two elements that Europe tries to avoid at all costs: “conflict” (no EU policymaker wants to hear of a new conflict, as Europe already has plenty of problems to deal with and has no interest in adding yet another one) and “internationalisation” (which means trying to pass the problem to one’s neighbours instead of trying to find a solution on one’s own). In contrast, the “right to decide” sounds on first hearing very democratic, for who will doubt that citizens have every right to express themselves and decide their own future?
As expected, the EU response has been clear. As much as the press release of the Generalitat is endeavouring to present it differently, the reading in diplomatic terms is of a clear failure, which in turn is putting into question the credibility of Artur Mas and of the self-determination process itself. The evidence is clear: on his first trip to Brussels in March 2011, Mas met the European Commission President, José Manuel Barroso, and in June 2011 the European Council President, Herman Van Rompuy, which was appropriate considering his status of President of an autonomous Spanish region. However, this year Mas has not been received by either of the two, but by various Commissioners, i.e. people at ministerial level (without even a photo session during the April visit). The EU has also expressed its “concern” about the possibility of the independence of Catalonia (which is the traditionally used diplomatic formula to provide a clear warning of disagreement and an indication that this is not the way to go). Moreover, the spokesperson of the Commission has made it clear that in case of independence, Catalonia would be excluded from the EU and, therefore, have to negotiate its accession as a new member state. In other words, Europe has said “no” to Artur Mas regarding the self-determination process.
Another proof of failure is the different treatment granted to the Basque Country President Iñigo Urkullu during his visit, also in April, just days after Mas’. He was received by both José Manuel Barroso and by Herman Van Rompuy (photo included!), as befits his rank. I am convinced that this situation would not have occurred if the previous Delegate of the Generalitat in Brussels, Joan Prats (a reputed diplomat with long experience in the EU), had continued inpost. But of course, he lacked the necessary pro-independence credentials. Apparently, the only person who has officially acknowledged this failure and warned of the dangers of being excluded from the EU is Josep Antoni Duran (leader of the Democratic Union of Catalonia and President of the Committee on Foreign Affairs of the Spanish Parliament), but he has no pro-independence convictions either.
But why has Mas not been received at the presidential level and why has the EU expressed its “concern” about the ongoing self-determination process, when all it is about (at least according to Catalan nationalists) is giving a voice to the Catalans, allowing them to decide their own future?
First, in the EU, disobeying the rules of the game and showing disrespect for the rule of law (understood as enforcing democratically passed laws and respecting and enforcing court judgments) always raises eyebrows among European leaders. At the end of the day, it goes against the very heart of the EU’s core values: respect of fundamental human rights and the rule of law. As we have heard from Mas and Oriol Junqueras, the main drivers of the self-determination movement, either a referendum will take place even without the consent of the government of Mariano Rajoy (as required by Spanish law) and under the legal cover of the future Catalan law on referenda, or via early elections convened specially for this purpose; all on the basis of a supposed democratic legitimacy or “the will of the people”. Arguments about competing legitimacies (democratic versus legal) are unacceptable to the EU, where the only legitimacy comes from the procedures used for the passing of legislation (which are seen to be democratic and respectful of basic human rights) and subsequent compliance.
Second, because of the danger of instability that the whole process could generate within the EU itself, not only in terms of economic uncertainty (when Europe is still fighting the worst crisis since the Second World War), but also in political terms (the creation of a new state in the heart of old Europe and its inevitable exit from the EU) and, in extreme cases, also from a security perspective. Even if a similar situation to what happened in the Balkans seems impossible (the trauma of the Balkans is still very present, including the disastrous way the breakup of the former Yugoslavia was handled, when the U.S. had to intervene to solve the situation), problems arising from an unstable political situation cannot be ruled out completely (e.g. civil disobedience from parts of the population, increased organised crime, etc.).
Third, the risk of proliferation of similar cases in other EU countries, which a successful secession could generate, would undoubtedly increase the degree of instability in Europe.
____________________
Víctor Andrés Maldonado is an ex-EU official (first of the Court of Auditors and then of the European Commission) and has published articles in La Voz de Barcelona and Crónica Global, as well as on the blog Clave Ciudadana.
Note: This article gives the views of the author, and not the position of the Euro Crisis in the Press blog, nor of the London School of Economics.
Pingback: Catalan Separatism, a European Problem | Euro Crisis in the Press
Pingback: Zum sogenannten “Referendum über die katalanische Selbstbestimmung” – 4 | A BLOG FOR NONCONFORMISTS
I find all the commentary here very interesting and some good points have been raised, but I would to also contribute the following question.
If Catalonia is given independence and in my barrio in Barcelona . Which has its own council is largely against independence. Can we then pursue independence from the independistas? We after all have our own language. We tend to drop the last two letters from each Castilian word, we have our own culture, we like climbing on the shoulders if each other whilst dressed as little girls and we generate more hot air than the rest if Spain and what it gives back to us.
Our leader, who we call el presiden has already initiated international discourse by writing a letter to the leader if bikini atoll asking for support. ( and a tax haven)
What else do we need? We have suffered so much since…, our heritage is denied and the Spanish / catalan unionist are holding us back, we could surely be another Cambodia ( or at least a good street in Detroit)
Sounds a bit silly? Then you know how the rest of the world see’s the indepence movement of mr mas et al,
@ Alphonse
Read ’em Alphonse; there are dozens of others freely available via the simplest internet searching, and they overwhelmingly support the case I was making, not yours. No serious commentators fall for the Spanish unionist line. If you have any actual evidence feel free to present it; it is much more likely of course that like most supporters of regressive political movements, you aren’t much concerned with actual evidence!
http://www.it-intransit.eu/what-do-we-need-know-about-fiscal-deficit
http://www20.gencat.cat/docs/economia/70_Economia_SP_Financament/documents/Financament_autonomic/balanca_fiscal_Catalunya_Administracio_Central/05%2021%20Fiscal%20Balance%20(summary)%20(2).pdf
http://www.raco.cat/index.php/Paradigmes/article/download/225493/306836
http://www.unitat.cat/articles/AppliedEconomics2005.pdf
Andy Ellis: “Spanish “unionists”. Can you please explain this term, which means nothing to me or any other person living in Spain, is never used in political debate there, and has had no historical use whatever in this or any other political context in Spain? Why do you insist on using it? Spain, unlike the United Kingdom, is not a union of any sort, and opponents of regional independentism are not “unionists”. Nobody calls them that, so why do you? Are you confused, incapacitated or both?
If you don’t like the shorthand use of the term “unionist” for the regressive forces opposing self determination for Catalonia Alphone, feel free to propose another?
Perhaps Nationalist would be more apposite…? It seemed to work for the ideological antecedents of much of the movement, even sadly many in mean stream parties like the PP who really ought to know better!
I’ll leave it to people with a more balanced view to judge who is the incapacitated one here; after all, I’m not the one trying to argue black is white with respect to the fiscal imbalance or levels of support for independence whilst simultaneously refusing to provide any actual evidence, or indeed to argue in good faith.
We should of course be unsurprised that “unionist” agents of unreason use the same tactics in both Spain and Scotland!
You can’t use ‘unionist’: it implies an illegitimate transposition of the UK legal foundation as a state to a country that has a completely different legal founding basis. Nobody uses the term and you should not use it either. Defenders of the integrity of the Spanish state are not ‘unionists’.
I can use any term I like; it’s an easily defensible shorthand to anyone not blinded by ideological blinkers like you. Who appointed you custodian of terminology?!
Defenders of the integrity of the Spanish state can call themselves anything they like, just as I can use the term “unionists” for them if I like, and point out that denying self determination to the Catalan people by attempting to veto a referendum, or threatening to arrest Artur Mas or others in favour of such referendum, makes those advocating it enemies of democracy. It really isn’t that hard.
you say you have the right to call me ‘unionist’ without any reason or foundation. If that is your understanding of a rational discussion then, well, and stop this conversation right away. Nice, eh?
Regarding your ‘fiscal balances’, your independentist sources point out that Catalonia contributes more taxes than it receives investment per capita. But they refuse to reveal: i) that it is by no means the only region to do so, and it is in fact by NOT AT ALL the region that most contributes (that is the Autonomous Community of Madrid by a very large margin) and ii) that in any country those regions that are richer will typically contribute more to state budgets, precisely because taxes apply to personal and corporate income, capital and inherited wealth, so not surprisingly, for example, Massachusetts contributes more per capita to the Federal budge of the USA than, say, Louisiana, and Baviera more than any east German lander. The five wealthiest Spanish regions, in GDP per capita are in this order: Madrid, Navarra, País Vasco, La Rioja, Catalonia. And not surprisingly they all contribute more to the State budget with Madrid leading the rest by a very large margin: http://www.fedea.net/vi-informe-del-observatorio-fiscal-y-financiero-de-las-comunidades-autonomas/
That’s hardly the point; the issue is that of the regions you mention only Catalonia and the Basque country have any real desire/prospect of independence. Scotland is the third richest region of the UK after London & SE England.
For years UK unionists asserted that Scotland could not afford independence, that we were subsidised by the rest of the UK, and that the country was effectively a “subsidy junky”. When this lie was disproved and it was demonstrated that Scotland actually contributes more than it gets out (tho not by as large a margin as Catalonia does to Spain), the unionists had to admit defeat, and change tack to other scare stories.
In the case of many other regions or states, their relative fiscal imbalances vis a vis the supra national authority are far lower than is the case for Catalonia, so again your position (such as it is) doesn’t really hold any water.
There are of course many reasons other than just economics making independence attractive to Catalans (or Scots, Flemings etc), but the relative deterioration both real and perceived in the fiscal position in Catalonia is one of the chief reasons accounting for the shift in popular opinion and polls over a number of years in Catalonia. Similarly in Scotland, the demolition of the unionist economic case, and the realisation that Scotland would certainly be no worse off as an independent state, and more likely considerably better off, help explain the growing popularity of the Yes campaign there.
By the way, a whole bunch of professional economists here seem to disagree with you:
http://www.it-intransit.eu/catalan-experts-denounce-fiscal-spoliation-catalonia
wrong again. The real reason behind the rise of independentism in Catalonia in the last 4 years have to do with the Constitutional Tribunal ruling against the establishment of judicial supreme courts at the regional level. The crisis has bitten but as the economic reports show, Catalonia has enjoyed increased levels of state investment in the last four years compared to other regions such as Madrid, Cantabria, Galicia or Navarra. Catalonia fiscal position is considerably better (relative to other regions) than it was, say 10 years ago. The real culprit of the terrible economical situation there is the local government spending policy, which has been abominable.
What can be asserted without evidence, can be similarly dismissed. If you are so confident that your assertions are correct, point us in the direction of the polls that support your take on why independence support has grown.
We’re waiting….
Andy Ellis: after consulting your ‘sources’ (sic) I can only say this: get your economics ‘facts’ from economists please, and not from amateur journalists with an independentist agenda.
Feel free to provide your alternative sources and facts Alphonse; all we’ve had from you so far are assertions with no evidence whatsoever; a reasonable person might almost think that was because you had none? Or perhaps you’re just not too proficient at google mining?
Which part of this don’t you agree with exactly? Are you trying to say that Catalonia DOESN’T have a fiscal imbalance with the rest of Spain? If so, surely this is big news, and would be readily provable with reference to slam-dunk analysis from neutral observers? No…?
Strange that, huh?
You twist my words. I have said that i) that regional fiscal balances are very difficult to measure, and that the different ways of measuring give very different results, ii) that CAtalonia is by no means the region in Spain with the greatest imbalance, regardless of how one measures, iii) that any country that applies progressive taxation will have regional imbalances, where as is only natural the wealthiest will contribute correspondingly more, iv) that Catalonia is not the wealthiest region in Spain, either in absolute or in GDP per capita terms, that is the Automous Community of Madrid, which correspondingly contributes more than any other region on either measure, and v) that what Catalonia leads is the regional debt rankings in Spain with the greatest debt, the lower rankings from the financial rankings (in all cases Catalonian debts is considered ‘junk’) and contributing nearly 40% of the total of the Spanish sovereign debt. You find these data not by googling (unlike you, I don’t need to google to find my data) but by consulting the only thorough study of regional finances in Spain carried out by the international team of economists at FEDEA: http://www.fedea.net/vi-informe-del-observatorio-fiscal-y-financiero-de-las-comunidades-autonomas/
But obviously you either don’t read Spanish or can’t read a technical report. Either way it shows how knowledgeable you are about the topic.
I refer you to the answer above. Nobody said anything about whether other regions of Spain had larger imbalances; it isn’t a relevant point in this debate. Of course, London & SE of England have larger imbalances than Scotland in the UK…. but nobody is campaigning for London to declare UDI from the UK…well, maybe Boris Johnson would like it, but you strike me as having about as much credibility as him, and none of the comedy charm!
I don’t have to be able to read Spanish or Catalan to read the freely available information in English showing that Catalonia has a fiscal imbalance. As yu say yourself, there is plenty of evidence on both sides; all you have come up with so far is one reference in Spanish, yet you have the audacity to claim it as some knock out blow. Yeah, that’ll work! (#facepalm as they say on twitter!)
you said “Catalonia has a huge fiscal imbalance with the rest of Spain” and I have just shown that to be false, and you have now agreed that it is false, since you have conceded that other regions in Spain have greater imbalances however one measures them. Since they have greater imbalances, Catalonia can not have a surplus with respect to them and it is false that it has a ‘huge fiscal surplus with the rest of Spain”. I rest my case: You are indeed a liar.
Where and how have you demonstrated it is false? You have asserted it, which is somewhat different. Also, I didn’t agree it was false; the fact that other regions are in a worse position is (as I already stated) irrelevant to the discussion. It is beyond any reasonable dispute that Catalonia contributes much more to Spain than it receives in return.
We’re finished here; people like you are a great advert in favour of independence.
“Catalonia has a huge fiscal surplus with the rest of Spain” is false if there is a single region in Spain that has a greater surplus as you have conceded is the case. Only the taxpayers of the Autonomous Community of Madrid have the right to assert that their region has “a huge fiscal surplus with the rest of Spain”. This is arithmetic and nobody should be willing to converse with one who denies 2+2 = 4.
@ Adrian
Let’s examine the evidence shall we Adrian; after being bested in an argument, you now advise like minded people not to engage in debate on the basis you have randomly decided I think I’m a know it all. Be fair, it wouldn’t take much to know more than someone like you who began by denying Catalan was a language rather than a dialect, only to retract when challenge, whilst simultaneously making a moral equivalence between the crimes of the fascist Franco regime, and your frankly hysterical reports of anti-Castilian language policies in Catalonia today.
It’s not about having the last word, it’s about evidence and whether the points you and other anti-independence campaigners like you make have any validity. Given the kind of agitprop put forward by you, Alphonse, Victor, Stuart and the like we can safely leave it to ordinary Catalans to judge whose take on the actual situation is more realistic.
From the evidence, I wouldn’t have trusted you if you told me it was raining in the midst of typhoon Haiyan.
I don’t think you are a know-it-all, Andy Ellis, but you are certainly a very dogmatic and self-interested person. You are the one who has failed to provide a single fact backed up by evidence, and your lack of knowledge of the economics of Catalonia is simply astonishing.
You should really not be partaking in a debate like this, out of humble human decency if nothing else.
You can be assured I won’t be taking advice from someone with so little understanding of the situation as you Alphonse! Someone with a negligible understanding of Catalan history and culture, still less of current Catalan politics or society, as your contributions on here amply demonstrate.
Anyone with google access can find out a huge amount of evidence pro and anti on Catalan independence and the economics underlying it. The uncomfortable facts for anti-independence extremists like you of course is that Catalonia has a huge fiscal surplus with the rest of Spain. No serious commentators think Catalonia would have any problem surviving as an independent state.
Much like the debate in Scotland, since the regressive forces of unionism have no economic case, they fall back on spurious scare stories about the EU, defence, and in the case of you and your friends trying to deny there is enough support for independence +/or trying to paint Catalan nationalism as somehow morally equivalent to the falangists!
Thankfully, it looks like you and your friends are losing the argument, and badly:
http://www.catalannewsagency.com/politics/item/54-7-of-catalans-would-vote-for-independence-in-a-referendum
Andy Ellis writes: “Catalonia has a huge fiscal surplus with the rest of Spain”. This is another fabricated myth. The fiscal accounts of the Spanish regions are not calculated or published (taxation in Spain is generally not a matter for regions but is collected by the state as tax on personal or corporate income – so it is far from trivial how to convert these into “regional” balances). These claims you allude to are all based on estimates which vary greatly. On the type of accountability Catalan independentists find most favorable to them, the Spanish region that has the largest fiscal surplus by large is the Automous Community of Madrid at around 140% followed by Navarre, the Basque Country, La Rioja and in about 5th position Catalonia on 115%.
Another myth goes – so sorry, and again another ‘fact’ of yours based on anything but evidence…
Andy Elllis points to: http://drderekbateman.wordpress.com/2013/11/20/im-unanimous-about-this/ as evidence that a region can gain independence from a sovereign state member of the EU while remaining in the EU. This may – just, I have my doubts – apply to Scotland, which is indeed a nation state within a state as the very name “United Kingdom” suggests. It does not apply to Catalonia which has never been a state and is not recognized as a nation by the Spanish (or any other) constitution. The foundation of the UK is a federation of independent states. That is not the foundation of Spain, which as a nation state precedes any of its present day regions, and certainly Catalonia. Even in the most favorable circumstances for the Scottish case, Catalonia does not fulfill the conditions.
@ Alphonse Redoutable 5:03pm
If a week is a long time in politics, then we can safely assume several years equates to an age. The mistake that the deeply regressive forces of unionism in both Spain and the UK have made of course is to abjectly fail to deliver what the people in Catalonia and Scotland want. Thus in Scotland, where the % in favour of independence is not as strong as in Catalonia, the reason that independence is a now real prospect is that the unionist parties have signally failed to deliver any coherent plan for the further devolution of power (or devo-max as they call it) the majority of Scots want. Indeed even if the ideologically disparate Better Together camp could come up with a coherent devo-max plan, they would have precisely zero chance of getting it through Westminster. Thus the referendum is a binary Yes/No to independence, with the unionists betting the farm that they can scare and mislead the Scottish people into voting No by trotting out many of the same ridiculous straw men used by Spanish unionists against Catalonia, especially the old canard about EU membership being denied.
No serious commentators, and still fewer EU insiders, actually believe that the EU has any interest in trying to exclude wither Catalonia or Scotland from the EU. It is indeed vanishingly unlikely that they will do anything other than ensure both states are fast-tracked into membership. There is no precedent in EU law or history for the accession of 2 new states of this type, and the decision will in the end be a political one, not a legal one. Spain will not be given the opportunity to try and veto such membership, any more than it will be given the opportunity to prohibit the free expression of the Catalan people.
In both the Catalan case and the Scottish case, it is also worth bearing in mind that if Spain & the UK insist on the newly independent states being regarded as “new” states, whilst they are the successor states, then neither new state will be required to shoulder ANY of the debts or liabilities of the successors. I imagine many Scots and Catalans would be more than happy with that deal!
Although the Catalan and Scottish paths to independence have many differences as well as some similarities, it is increasingly evident that one of the common drivers which many pro-independence supporters like myself discern is the abject failure of the unionist elites & establishment in both Spain and the UK to develop, publicise, debate and still less deliver the level of federalism/devolution which many would have supported. As a convert from supporting devolution within the UK to independence for Scotland I know that independence would be good not just for Scotland, but also for the rest of the UK, as well as being a progressive beacon around Europe and the world.
Andy Ellis: “then neither new state will be required to shoulder ANY of the debts or liabilities of the successors. I imagine many Scots and Catalans would be more than happy with that deal!”
You are incredibly misinformed about the most basic facts regarding the Catalan case. Catalonia has double the average debt of the Spain regions, and its regional debt has the worst ratings in the whole of Spain. In fact since Catalonia is solely responsible for 40% of the Spanish sovereign debt, on your reasoning, it is the rest of Spain that would be so pleased not to be burdened by their debt and just push them out.
Get your economics facts right before you spread what turn out to be utterly damaging lies around.
Pingback: Europe Says “No” to Artur Mas: a Euro Crisis in the Press blog post | LSE Enterprise in Spain and Latin America
The problem is determining who is Catalan, and who should decide? Catalonia is now filled with legal and illegal immigrants from third World countries. They have been promised European citizenship if Catalonia separates from the rest of Spain, and they have been given the right to vote. Spaniards with non-Catalan last names have lived in Catalonia for a few years or hundreds of years. On the other hand millions of Spaniards have Catalan surnames, and they have lived all over Spain for a few years or for hundreds of years. How do you take the milk out of a Cafe latte when the milk the coffee and the sugar have been mixed for thousands of years?
Although I don’t know the minutiae of how the Catalan government plan to handle issues around citizenship post any Yes vote, I don’t think this is as problematic an issue as you seem to think Virgil?
In the case of Scotland, I think the Scottish Government has been fairly clear about what would happen and as an expat Scot living in England I do have an interest in what happens if my countrymen vote Yes in Sept. 2014.
From what I understand of the Scottish situation, those born in Scotland or with parents who were born in Scotland, would be able to claim Scottish passports/citizenship – that would certainly be my intent. I think the criteria may even extend to having had grand-parents born in Scotland, as I think has happened in many other similar situations.
My understanding is that anyone currently living in Scotland would have citizens by default, unless they chose to e.g. retain citizenship of the rump UK, or some other state whose citizenship they were entitled to claim.
I doubt it would work significantly differently in Catalonia, and of course if BOTH Spain & Catalonia were in the EU, there isn’t much in the way of a problem surely?
@Stuart Medina Miltimore
It isn’t up to the Spanish government to “allow” Catalans to vote on their independence, any more than it is in the gift of London to “allow” Scots to do so, Russians to “allow” the people of the 3 Baltic States, Serbia to “allow” Kossovo or Montenegro; are you seeing a pattern here Stuart?
The current economic situation, or the (faintly ridiculous) assertion that it’s just too traumatic, are issues for the people to decide when the weigh up the relative pros and cons of the opposing arguments, they are not trump cards which somehow support the regressive unionist agendas of those opposed to respecting the democratic wishes of the inhabitants of Catalonia.
Despite your brave efforts and assertions (for in truth that IS all they are, assertion) to the contrary, there is absolutely no consensus about how the EU will handle putative membership in cases like Catalonia and Scotland, since there is no precedent. What is overwhelmingly likely is that if either or both states become independent, the decision will be a political, not legal one – the EU has zero interest in denying membership to either state, or in making it difficult for them to fast-tracked, given that they both already adhere to the “acquis communitaire”.
From a Scottish point of view, this issue has been extensively discussed in the run up to next year’s independence referendum. Interestingly, it has been pointed out (by Matt Qvotrup amongst others: http://newsnetscotland.com/index.php/referendum/7365-independent-scotland-could-be-debt-free-if-westminster-maintains-current-stance) that the problem for unionists in such situations is that they can’t have it both ways; either Scotland and Catalonia are regarded as equal successor states with the UK and Spain, or they are regarded as “new” states.
Assuming the latter, then international precedent suggests that the “new” state would assume zero liability for the debts of the successor state (in these examples Spain and rump UK). I imagine plenty of Scots and Catalan voters might be happy with that outcome!
@ Andy Ellis….your statement: “they demonstrate how easily the opponents of Catalan, Scottish (or indeed any other independence movement it seems) attempt to stifle the legitimate democratic aspirations of the people seeking independence with reference to ridiculous scare stories, “whatiffery” and Cassandra like predictions that it will all end in tears, or worse conflagration.”
For the sake of a balanced argument, one should not ignore the more brutal attempts by fanatical Catalan nationalists to impose their regional dialect on the population of the region and rollback the Spanish language. Look under the bonnet of Catalan nationalism and you will find anything but a “peaceful”, tolerant movement, as evidenced by the violence of Els Maulets, and the divisive tactics of snitching on shops that put up signs in Spanish so that they can be fined.
There is evidence to suggest that the pendulum has swung too far the other way. Franco and his opressive regime that stiffled the Catalan language are long gone. Yet the nationalists are trying to do the same to Spanish, and appealing to the International Community to sanction it. We should not be hoodwinked. Meanwhile the children of the region are being deliberately denied an education in one of the world’s most widely-spoken languages for the sake of an ideology. Not good in an increasingly global world economy.
An extremely biased comment: considering Catalan a regional dialect was, for instance, mainstream Franco’s ideology. It is not a usual argument today, even among far-right unionists. Worth reading “Catalan: a language that has survived against the odds”, by Stephen Burgen.
Have to agree with Enric on this one; trying to make a moral equivalence between Francoist suppression of Catalan culture, people and rights, and present day issues within Catalonia with respect to promotion or otherwise of Castilian is pretty repugnant.
Sorry, the Catalan language. I don’t wish to offend. Anyway, all the ‘tongues’ spoken in the Iberian Peninsula are dialects of Vulgar Latin, except Basque which isn’t an Indo-European language.
Catalans can do what they please. I really don’t care. My only point is that it’s sad to see them stiffling Spanish rather than adopting a “live and let live” approach where different languages, dialects, call them what you will, can co-exist and people can choose freely what they language they wish to speak in their daily lives and educate their kids in. Would that Catalonia aspired to be like Switzerland.
Pingback: Europe says “no” to Artur Mas | Clave Ciudadana
The Catalan secessionists refuse to acknowledge that the EU is a treaty between states; not citizens, not regions. If Catalonia were to secede from Spain the new state would have to apply for membership. The secessionists seem disappointed because the EU representatives are not showing a sympathetic attitude. This is not conservatism on the part of the EU institutions as suggested by one of the posts. Neither the Commission nor the European Parliament can act against the founding treaties. I would advise the Catalan secessionists to read the two main treaties of the EU. They are available on the internet.
At least it’s only about democracy, let catalans decide what they want their future to be, it’s only a political issue, allow the catalan government to ask a simple question and let the catalan people decide (as british government will do with Scotland) and then if catalan decide to become independent the EU will be asked (as with Scotland). At the moment nobody can pretend to speak in the name of EC http://www.324.cat/noticia/2204533/politica/Schulz-sobre-Catalunya-La-UE-no-pot-resoldre-el-problema-La-solucio-sha-de-trobar-dins-el-mateix-pais
I don’t think you are getting the point. I was referring to the fact that Catalonia would not be automatically a new member state of the EU if it seceded from Spain. This information is not being faithfully transmitted to Catalan citizens. In any event voting on an emotional issue in the midst of the worst economic and political crisis in Spain is not the best way to handle this problem. The Spanish Government should not allow a referendum before 2015. Minds should cool off and all the parties should be given a chance to put forth their arguments. The Catalan secesionist have been waging a propaganda blitz which is misleading public opinion. The other side should be given a fair chance to explain. Even better if a referendum is avoided altogether. There are few events that are more traumatic than the break up of a state.
It isn’t up to the Spanish government to “allow” Catalans to vote on their independence, any more than it is in the gift of London to “allow” Scots to do so, Russians to “allow” the people of the 3 Baltic States, Serbia to “allow” Kossovo or Montenegro; are you seeing a pattern here Stuart?
The current economic situation, or the (faintly ridiculous) assertion that it’s just too traumatic, are issues for the people to decide when the weigh up the relative pros and cons of the opposing arguments, they are not trump cards which somehow support the regressive unionist agendas of those opposed to respecting the democratic wishes of the inhabitants of Catalonia.
Despite your brave efforts and assertions (for in truth that IS all they are, assertion) to the contrary, there is absolutely no consensus about how the EU will handle putative membership in cases like Catalonia and Scotland, since there is no precedent. What is overwhelmingly likely is that if either or both states become independent, the decision will be a political, not legal one – the EU has zero interest in denying membership to either state, or in making it difficult for them to fast-tracked, given that they both already adhere to the “acquis communitaire”.
From a Scottish point of view, this issue has been extensively discussed in the run up to next year’s independence referendum. Interestingly, it has been pointed out (by Matt Qvotrup amongst others: http://newsnetscotland.com/index.php/referendum/7365-independent-scotland-could-be-debt-free-if-westminster-maintains-current-stance) that the problem for unionists in such situations is that they can’t have it both ways; either Scotland and Catalonia are regarded as equal successor states with the UK and Spain, or they are regarded as “new” states.
Assuming the latter, then international precedent suggests that the successor state would assume zero liability for the debts of the successor state (in these examples Spain and rump UK). I imagine plenty of Scots and Catalan voters might be happy with that outcome!
Edit: in the final para I meant of course that the “new” state would assume zero liability! 😉
We have read the two main treaties of the EU. We have also read “EU Law and the Separation of Member States”, by David Edward, in Fordham International Law Journal. Why core European values should not be respected, according to TEU article 2? Will Catalonia, a new state due to the break-up of Spain, be excluded of the European Union, according to TEU article 50? Will a democratic decision be punished by the European Union? We do not think so. We believe that Martin Schulz does not think so.
Very simple: the EU treaties are signed by states and apply only to member states. Read article 49 please.
http://claveciudadana.es/por-que-europa-dice/
It’s good to know about the objectivity/credibility of an author, just to analyse the article in its context, the 2 medias where the author writes are not at all objective or representative of the catalan society http://es.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/La_Voz_de_Barcelona
“La Voz de Barcelona es un diario digital barcelonés de información política de Cataluña escrito en español… Su línea editorial es contraria al secesionismo catalán.El 12 de agosto de 2013 se anunció en el diario que La Voz de Barcelona y El Debat se fusionaran en septiembre del mismo año, creando un nuevo diario llamado Crónica Global”
Ah, now I see; I would have expected either the author (or indeed the webpage admin) to mention the anti-independence stance. Given some of the other poorly researched hatchet jobs attacking the Catalan independence movement which have appeared on here recently however, I can’t say I’m surprised!
Dear Andy, thank you for your interest in the blog and for participating in the debate. We always provide information about all the authors that we host and it is up to the readers to draw conclusions about the authors’ arguments. May I also remind you that we have hosted a piece in support of the Catalan independence movement (https://blogs.lse.ac.uk/eurocrisispress/2013/10/18/a-bandwagon-with-a-purpose-the-independence-of-catalonia/) and we are happy to post more on this in the future, provided that we get good quality posts.
If the EU has indeed said “No” to Artur Mas as this tendentious piece asserts, then it simply demonstrates the innate conservatism of the organisation, but more worryingly demonstrates why the EU as currently structured has so signally failed to connect with the people who actually matter; its citizens. Member states, particularly those with creaking, crypto-medieval, deeply regressive systems like Spain and the UK, are of course adept at using the EU as a shield when it suits them, but to criticise and undermine it when it does not, or when it shows any indications of challenging their monopoly of power.
Of course the current EU would much prefer prospective problems like Catalan and Scottish independence to just go away; after all, the supra-national dreams of an ever closer Union of the European peoples wasn’t supposed to play out like this, was it? The trouble is neither of these issues is going away any time soon, and Maldonaldo’s unsurprising defence of the status quo looks increasingly unconvincing.
The slightly hysterical references to the dangers of instability, the even more ridiculous Balkan War comparison, and his enthusiasm for the rule of law trumping the will of the people, simply show how out of touch he is. In addition they demonstrate how easily the opponents of Catalan, Scottish (or indeed any other independence movement it seems) attempt to stifle the legitimate democratic aspirations of the people seeking independence with reference to ridiculous scare stories, “whatiffery” and Cassandra like predictions that it will all end in tears, or worse conflagration.
In point of fact, more balanced commentators (and it is highly likely many officials within the EU, as well as many politicians in other EU states) are pretty sanguine about the prospect of Catalan AND Scottish independence. The EU as an institution has precisely ZERO interest in making it difficult for either country to be welcomed and indeed fast-tracked if necessary as the next 2 EU members. Both putative new states already adhere to the acquis communitaire, both will be political, economic and strategic assets to the EU.
If the EU isn’t capable of changing to ensure such accession is achieved, of managing the potential challenges and issues involved, and of facing down the less attractive aspects of Spanish and UK unionism, then it probably doesn’t deserve to survive in its current form anyway.
If the recent economic crisis and problems in the Eurozone have shown us anything, it is that the current organisational structure isn’t fit for purpose. Attitudes within the EU like those demonstrated by Maldonaldo’s piece simply show why Catalan and Scottish independence would be good not only for their respective supra-national homes, but also for a newly invigorated EU which served the democratic wishes of ALL it peoples, not the corrupt, discredited governing elites of the existing members.
“the corrupt, discredited governing elites of the existing members” in Catalonia, are precisely the ones that more want the Catalan State. And above anything the political elites, who just seek power and don´t like to be controlled by other political instances.
It was the Spansh “hacienda” who discovered the political elites corruption, the same who want now the Catalan State in the Palau de la Música, never forget it.
The Catalan independence movement is mainly a grassroots, democratic, peaceful, self-funded, non-partisan movement. We follow the very heart of the EU’s core values: respect of fundamental human rights (self-determination, for instance) and the rule of law. In fact, the Catalan Parliament is working to reach an agreement with Madrid, like Cameron & Salmond’s one. The Spanish Constitution allows a political solution. Madrid can authorize a referendum in Catalonia.
Mr. Andrés is right. Europe needs that agreement in Spain in order to stop instability. Former status quo is broken. How could we fix it? An independence referendum seems the best solution. Let Catalans vote.
Enric Blanes: “The Catalan independence movement is mainly a grassroots, democratic, peaceful, self-funded, non-partisan movement.”
You only wish. The catalan independence movement to the contrary is movement wholly directed, funded, and led by the most traditional, conservative and established elements of the Catalan bourgeoisie that have ruled and exploited the country for centuries, and are now taking advantage of the autonomous community system to perpetuate themselves in power. As for the media, it is well known that the Catalan media – with very few, and rather glorious in their resilience, exceptions – is heavily subsidized by the above mentioned castes in government, to the point that they all recently struck a political pact (and you have to read this carefully to realize what an utterly amazing fact it is, so let me repeat it: THE CATALAN MEDIA SIGNED A POLITICAL PACT) four years ago to advance the cause of independentism.
As a result, Catalans are utterly misinformed about their economic, legal and social standing and situation in Spain and Europe, and it is just ludicrous that a referendum is proposed under the present circumstances.
An evidence free, tendentious rant; what actual evidence do you have to back up your preposterous claims about the Catalan independence movement? How can you possibly expect people to take you seriously when they have seen with their own eyes 1.5 million Catalans taking to the streets in support of independence? Who do you think votes for the parties in the Generalitat, or answers Yes in poll after poll showing a majority in favour of independence?
Are you honestly trying to say that the Catalan people are too stupid to weigh up the relative merits of the unionist and independence camps, and make an informed choice based on the evidence? That’s as crazy a notion as the UK unionists who insist there isn’t enough information out there about Scots independence, or who insist ad nauseam on answers to every trivial detail of a post independence settlement, whilst providing no details or guarantees about what happens if the Scots vote No.
It just won’t wash. Catalans are no more mis-informed about their economic, legal or social standing in Spain and Europe than you are a reliable source for anything approaching the reality on the ground in Catalonia.
Why shouldn’t the elements of the Catalan media which support independence sign a pact to advance the cause of independence? Would to God that the main steam media in Scotland had the courage to do the same! Instead all we have is a hopelessly anti-independence biased print and electronic media, which slavishly reflect the unionist agenda, whilst especially in the case of print is losing readership in droves, their newspaper titles circling the drain of oblivion they so richly deserve.
There are none so blind as those who will not see, and it is quite obvious Alphonse that your unreasoned opposition to a democratic movement with huge popular support has totally skewed your view.
Huge popular support my foot. Up until 4 years ago every single poll indicated a very large majority of Catalan citizens supported staying in Spain under any circumstance. The latest polls indicate that the majority (roughly 2 out of 3) of Catalans do not support independence if that means leaving Europe. (This is particularly acute amongst voters of the ruling CiU.) And that is exactly what it means, but the Catalan media will not explain that to the electorate.
It is you Andy Ellis who is dogmatically attached to any cause that may support your own particular claim to Scottish independence, regardless of consequences for anyone else. And it is you and those in your camp who skew statistics, polls and opinion as you wish for your own interest.
On your EU disinformation, you might find this interesting:
http://drderekbateman.wordpress.com/2013/11/20/im-unanimous-about-this/
Just another piece of evidence to show how ridiculous the scaremongering about being thrown out of the EU is! 😉
Don’t waste your time Monsieur Redoubtable. Mr Ellis obviously likes nothing more than to slam other people’s opinions with well-written but very “purple” prose. His assertions cover up his ignorance and his admirable writing style twists other people’s meaning to suit his fire-breathing agenda. Let us leave it that Mr Ellis knows everything and anything about Catalonia, its history, its language and its politics and we should always let him have the last word.