It’s the English, stupid! Hudson Meadwell (McGill University) writes that the national structure of the UK and Britain, and the political organisation and expression of that structure, are keys to understanding Brexit.
Brexit is an English-centric phenomenon in which Northern Ireland, Scotland and Wales appear as complications or afterthoughts. The sole constitutional voices in the Brexit process are English-dominated, first in the referendum itself, which aggregated the vote across national jurisdictions and in Parliament. Neither Northern Ireland, nor Scotland nor Wales are constitutionally empowered to express a voice on the matter of EU membership.
However, English political dominance is not something which can be directly acknowledged in political discourse. The language used by David Cameron and Theresa May in their letters, eighteenth months apart, to the President of the European Council, Donald Tusk, shows some of the political equivocations that result. Cameron’s letter opens under the heading, “A New Settlement for the United Kingdom” and then twice refers to the ‘British people’. May opens her letter with reference to the ‘people of the United Kingdom’ and then presents the referendum as a ‘vote to restore, as we see it, our national self-determination’. These brief quotations should show just how slippery these signifiers are. The United Kingdom includes Northern Ireland but Northern Ireland is not British. Indeed, the notion of the ‘United Kingdom’ was repurposed in the 1920s in order to recognize the reality of Irish partition. May never refers to the British people but she does invoke national self-determination. Later, she again makes reference to the ‘people of the United Kingdom’ But to which nation is she referring; whose self-determination is she signifying? Is this just loose, sloppy language?
These kinds of ambiguities and equivocations in expression, in important documents written both to your negotiating adversary as well for a larger political audience, are revealing and call out for some diagnosis. Perhaps the political unconscious is slipping out. Or are we looking at strategically ambiguous political rhetoric embedded in plans, the elements of which are not self-evident in these documents? These are hard questions, in any case, particularly so here, when there is relatively little material, primary or secondary, to work with.
So, how to proceed? I’ll advance a conjecture related to nationalism. If anything can be taken for granted and thus draw some of its force from its unarticulated everydayness and be articulated and enacted in a political plan, it’s nationalism. Nationalism, as some of its theorists suggest, can be both banal and a self-conscious political project. That’s not a contradiction, it is a measure of the sources of nationalism’s social and political force.[1]
Hence the conjecture: Brexit is an expression of nationalism. Between Cameron and May in their letters, the latter is much more explicit, as she tried to invoke the legitimating power of national self-determination. But which nationalism? Who is more likely going to slip into the mentality that confuses their nation with ‘Britain’ or the United Kingdom?
This is a nationalist conceit but whose? It’s not the Scots, nor is it the Irish, or the Welsh. It’s the English.[2]That’s fully compatible with the recurring theme of English exceptionalism in British history, which takes English dominance (if not superiority) as a natural birthright.[3] After all, who incorporated who?
That birthright has been challenged at different historical points, and each challenge marks an important political crisis. English identity has proven fairly resilient but each crisis has left its mark. English dominance is not as natural a birthright as it used to be.
Irish resistance and eventually revolution still casts a long shadow in the form of Irish partition, even if England retained its dominant position in what is now known as the United Kingdom. In hindsight, partition perhaps bought England some (considerable) time but it looks now like that particular colonial legacy has come home to roost. Northern Ireland, drawing indirect and direct support from the EU and Ireland, and despite the support the Democratic Unionist Party has provided the Conservatives in Westminster, is now limiting England’s political degrees of freedom, much to the chagrin of Brexiteers.
Scotland is no longer particularly tractable and successfully induced the English to concede an elected assembly and, not long after, a first referendum on independence. This may be more a running problem than a crisis, if you prefer your crises to be episodic; nonetheless, the Scottish question will be part of the calculations of the Conservative government in their negotiations, up to and after the run-up to October 31, of a Labour government in the event of an electoral defeat of the Conservatives, at some point, whether post-Conservative transition or post-withdrawal and, naturally, of the SNP. There is no resolution of the Scottish question in sight.
Then there are the cumulative long-run effects of the rise of American power culminating in its post-1945 hegemony, the loss of blue-sea colonies, and more recently, the incremental deepening and enlargement of the EEC/EU after British entry. All of this changed the international standing of Britain and the UK and their imperial core – England.
English dominance thus is vulnerable: There are standing internal challenges to the borders of the political shells it maintains, and membership in the EU threatens its ability to control these interior spaces through the British parliament. These challenges can work in tandem as well as separately. ‘Scotland in Europe’ captures dramatically the instrumental relationship between Scotland’s national aspirations and EU institutions. Both the EU and Ireland have tangible stakes in Northern Ireland.
England has seen off various challenges to its dominance but its day of reckoning does seem to be drawing closer. It’s now much harder to separate challenges and deal with them as one-offs.
However, imperial cores don’t often reform themselves in the aftermath of empire. The current imbroglio does not look like the expression of a politically-healthy ruling class. There is no appetite for reform in the English ruling class. It’s a little like watching for regime change in autocratic contexts, looking for signs of a crack in the regime and the emergence of challengers to its hardliners. But there is not much sign of this in the party system, at least not yet.
The Conservative Party appears now all in for withdrawal, although it has been debating different scenarios. However, some of these scenarios are contrived. The Conservative party does not hold many cards, now that an agreement has been negotiated and ratified by one of the two parties in the negotiation.
On the other side of the House, the main political alternative – Labour – has been, at best, ambivalent about EU membership in the run-up to Brexit and afterwards. We can’t really say that Brexit has polarized the two major parties until relatively recently, as its leader pledged to support Remain in the event of a new referendum. Yet this was a rather half-hearted, rather than fully-voiced position. It likely will be overwhelmed by internal party division.
Labour is led by a longtime MP and activist who came to political maturity in pre-Thatcher Britain in a period in which (‘old’) Labour had not fully cast off its dream of ‘socialism in one country’. Membership in the EEC/EU, and the long march of English and British political history may not have put fully paid to that dream (even a weaker version of it) in Labour. Hence, withdrawal could be seen as an opportunity to return to roads not taken. That is also quite consistent with the general argument on the left that the EU is a neo-liberal dead end. So, the narrow national vision that underpins the Conservative position is not completely alien to Labour. If something like this is the choice on offer – if these are the two little Englands on offer – unification for the Irish and separation for Scotland may look more attractive.
This brings me back to where I started: the language of the letters written to Donald Tusk by Cameron and May. Perhaps, then, it is the political unconscious speaking in those letters even if the most recent challenge to English political dominance that continued EU membership represented has provoked a nationalism that is anything but banal.
No doubt, like his predecessors, the new Prime Minister will take the opportunity to write, whether to the President of the European Council or the President of the European Commission. Whatever is being said privately between the two negotiating parties, we can expect such a letter to be written partially for a domestic audience and hence to be made public.
How will he put it? In such a letter, will Johnson repeat in different words, his first public communication after being named Conservative leader, and invoke ‘the awesome foursome that are incarnated in that red white and blue flag who together are so much more than the sum of their parts’?
Part of this is generic, boilerplate nationalism, ‘rally around the flag’ rhetoric. Yet most of it is distinctively English nationalism – the denial of challenges to English dominance which an acknowledgement of national disunity would represent, coupled with an appeal to the unbroken coherence of the United Kingdom (the ‘awesome foursome’), all of which studiously skirts political reality.
This post represents the views of the author and not those of the Brexit blog, nor the LSE.
Hudson Meadwell is Associate Professor of Political Science at McGill University. Image © Copyright Richard Croft and licensed for reuse under this Creative Commons Licence.
[1] Michael Billig, Banal Nationalism (Thousand Oaks, CA.: Sage, 1995); Michael Skey and Marco Antonisch (eds.), Everyday Nationhood. Theorizing Culture, Identity and Belonging After Banal Nationalism (London: Palgrave Macmillian, 2017), Political Geography. Special Issue, Banal Nationalism 20 Years On. 54 (September, 2016).
[2] Krishan Kumar, The Making of English National Identity. Englishness and Britishness in Comparative and Historical Perspectives (Cambridge: Cambridge University Press, 2003) and Michael Skey, National Belonging and Everyday Life (Palgrave Macmillan: Basingstoke, 2011).
[3] Tom Nairn, The Enchanted Glass. Britain and Its Monarchy (London: Verso, 2011, rev. ed), Leah Greenfeld, Nationalism. Five Roads to Modernity, (Cambridge, MASS.: Harvard University Press, 1992), chapter 1, Linda Colley, Britons: Forging the Nation, 1707-1837 (New Haven, CT.: Yale University, 2009, rev. ed.)
Second para; David not Donald Cameron. Good article apart from that.
Thanks for spotting that – corrected.
“Northern Ireland is not British” In itself this is a hugely controversial statement. In my world-view, the islands of Great Britain, Ireland, the Isle of Man etcetera make up the British Isles, so that Northern Ireland is indeed British. I am however aware that in the Irish Republic they prefer not to be called British, so I respect their wishes, just as I think it is impolite to use the word “black” to describe African Americans but OK to use it for black Britishers. I also think we should respect the wishes of those inhabitants of Northern Ireland who want to be identified as British.
On the main point of the argument I agree that national identities are hugely important in this debate, as indicated by the vehemence with which it is conducted on both sides (far more than for example a discussion between people who hold different economic theories). Remainers in general identify as Europeans far more than Leavers do. This is also not something to be justified by logic. And like describing the island of Ireland as British, describing the British Isles as European, or not, is not someting people do for logical reasons, but emotional ones.
It would be of course quite wrong to decry the illogic of Leavers for identifying more with England or Britain than Europe, unless you also decry the illogic of Remainers for identifying more with Europe than (say) England.
My personal identifications: 1. the UK. 2. England. 3. Europe. But because I live in Germany and for obvious reasons I have taken out German citizenship I have a parallel set of affiliations: 1. the Bundesland where I reside. 2 Germany. 3. Europe. It would be as useless to argue about the ordering of these as to argue about musical preferences.
Alias, I have been thinking about your post about . I agree that there is no logic. i have just spoken to a Morris Man who has been hopping about in a jolly old English way because we are having the annual Folk festval here in Broadstairs. Politics always comes up and so his Remain stance was plain.My point is than nothing is as it seems. You would think a Morris man was nationalistic.. It seems so obvious to me that this Brexit thing is economic .All the graphs and demograpjhic models i see on the LSE page so remind me of the dreadful science made in the 19th cent to prove how some people were born stupid if they were from a none white race. Bad policy after the worry of the country being bankrupt after the second world war. France under De Gaulle wanting the controll of Europe. The loss of the 200 mile fishing rights when we begged to join the EU under Edward Heath.. The dreadful state of costal towns after the loss of the fishing industry. London at the centre of Finance and all other places left out . Does this not explain the Brexit vote to you?.
@Mrs Cheek: I think the general left-behind feeling of large swathes of the country does help explain the Brexit. See for example the various excellent articles by Lisa McKenzie to this blog, such as this one:
https://blogs.lse.ac.uk/brexit/2018/01/15/we-dont-exist-to-them-do-we-why-working-class-people-voted-for-brexit/
and this one
https://blogs.lse.ac.uk/brexit/2019/01/31/many-working-class-people-believe-in-brexit-who-can-blame-them/
But I don’t think you can describe that as purely economic. For example, many people in Scotland feel left behind in the same way as the people Lisa McKenzie interviewed (have a look at some of the posts further down this thread!), but they seem to react by supporting Scottish Nationalism rather than Brexit. It seems to me reasonable to say that the economic unfairness in society makes people look for an alternative method of government, but which alternative they seek will depend on their national identity.
On the point “London at the centre of Finance and all other places left out”. I don’t think this has much to do with Europe. London’s domination has goes back centuries, and Germany is an example of a country (where I happen to live) which is not dominated by any one city.
But!! English is an idea rather than a nationality.I grew up in the West Indies and my teachhers were black . I would never have been rude enough to refere to anyone’s looks. England was the mother country to us.The country where many of our teachers went to university. The politics of America has tainted this understanding of Englishness for almost 100 years. This Brexit thing is more about getting the economic balance right . People should be able to earn a living in parts of this country where it is now impossible to do so because all investment seems to have been concentrated in the South East. The reasons people voted Brexit are much more about unfairness than anything else.
English nationalism is definitely driving brexit. England’s arrogance towards Scotland will result in the break-up of the so-called united kingdom. About time too.
There are rather signs of resolution of ‘the Scottish Question’. A referendum conditions bill is working through the Scottish Parliament to define what indyref2 will look like and Lord Ashcroft publishes a poll showing 52% Yes support. Note the poll did not include either 16 and 17 year olds or EU citizens both of which groups will be allowed to vote in an indyref as they were in the last one.
In absolute numbers the gap last time was 245,000 people. There are around 200,000 adult EU citizens living in Scotland who will have a personal stake in the outcome. Denied a vote in the Brexit referendum they will be able to effectively vote Remain by voting Yes and get to stay stably and securely in EU member Scotland.
Add those two groups to Ashcroft’s poll means true Yes support is 2-4% higher, at least.
The game is very much afoot.
“stably and securely in EU member”
-try telling that to the youth of italy, spain, portugal, greece…
I enjoy dipping in to ‘does he take sugar?’ articles about what’s best for us Scots, written by our English Overlords.
The Union is finished, and no’ before time.
We wish England and their Welsh colonists and settlers who voted Leave all the best as he 51st State of the US.
I am a Scot, and we shall choose our own path, TVM.
The exceptionalism of the English and their tattered remnants of Empire, briefly touched on in this article, is clearly alive and well.
Good luck, Merrie England, or ‘Old England’ as it will doubtless be called when Kentucky ‘Scatch’ whiskey, Texas steroid Aberdeen Angus steaks, and GM crops Corn Flakes flood the market Down There.
When Nissan, Toyota, Jaguar, Rover, and Peugot relocate North to Scotland as the new 28th Member of the EU, we’ll be recruiting.
All welcome to apply for Scottish citizenship who are resident in the Former UK.
England is the Tribe That Lost Its Head.
We won’t be joining you; of that you can be certain.
I hope that you allow the opinion of a Scot on Scotland’s future on here.
Bon voyage, Green and Pleasant Land.
@Jack: please don’t go. We (or at least I) will miss you. I am not even a little bit Scottish but I do feel British and the departure of Scotland from the UK would be a fatal wound to that part of my identity.
You wish us the best as the 51st State of the US. That will not be the best and I think hardly anyone wants it.
I know the provocations have been very great but surely a 300 year relationship is worth saving, if you can? I think it’s too early to write off the UK, despite the chaos of the last three years, Things have improved, as you see by the parliament sitting in Holyrood. They will, I hope, continue to improve.
Rationally speaking, I think after Brexit, one of two things are going to happen. Either a. the economy will go down the tubes or b. things will stay much as they are. In the former case the UK (or what’s left of it) will soon or later get around to eating humble pie and reapplying for admission. In the latter case, things will continue much as they are. You seem to believe in the former. I don’t think the huge chaos Scottish independence would cause (Scotland is even closer entwined with the rest of the UK than the UK with the EU) would be justified by Scotland rejoining the EU a few years earlier than it would have done as part of the UK.
But as I said earlier, this isn’t really about logic but emotion (mine and Jack’s).
Alias, we had all that ‘please don’t go’ nonense as part of the ‘Charm Offensive’ buried deep iamidst the vicious threatening lying Project Fear in September 2014.
Physically Scotland is going nowhere.
I’ll still visit friends and family in Newcastle, Manchester,Leeds,Nottingham, Birmingham and,yes, even London.
We can no longer tolerate the democratic deficit, where Scotland is ‘governed’ by successive English Parliaments (q.v. Johnson’s ‘WM is England’s Parliament’ ) for which we did not vote.
We’ve had enough, and that was before Brexit, believe you me.
You are taking a radically different and alarmingly isolationist path to us Scots citizens.
We are not going to suck it and see.
We have reached tipping point.
The £ had plummeted by 24% against the Euro since 2014, and we, the People of Scotland have spoken, and wish to Remain within the EU, and according to the latest poll, 52% of us (and that doesn’t include EU Nationals working and settled here, demand Self Determination.
WE are nor asking England’s permission.
Imagine if the EU had the power to say No to England leaving that particular Union.
We wish you well, truly.
I have family living Down There.
But as they say Up Here, ‘The Game’s a bogey’.
There is no turning back.
We’ll still sell you genuine Aberdeen Angus beef, a delicious range of malt whiskies, and salmon that melts in the mouth.
Of course, you could emigrate here, alias.
As OUR Prime Minister Nicola Sturgeon observed;-‘ All are welcome; there’s plenty of room’.
Scotland with its isles is roughly the same size as England. We have 5.4 million souls thriving Up Here.
You are 58 million Down There piled high on top of each other gasping for air.
Slainte!
@Jack: “Alias, we had all that ‘please don’t go’ nonense as part of the ‘Charm Offensive’ buried deep iamidst the vicious threatening lying Project Fear in September 2014.”
It would be nice if all English realised how many people in Scotland feel like Jack (I think, a lot) and would see that they have a problem if they want to save the Union. But I think Jack might give me and other English the credit for trying to be charming not because we want to steal Scotland’s oil, run Scotland as a colony or move to Scotland (thanks for the offer) but because we mean it.
Jack, don’t you feel that there are parallels between the Project Fear of September 2014 and the Project Fear of June 2016? Back in September 2014 I remember the Scots being told that the details of Scottish independence would be worked out in about 18 months, including such knotty problems as what to do with Sterling (which no-one seemed to have an answer to). Back in June 2016 I remember everyone in the UK being told that the trade deal with the EU after Brexit would be the easiest in history and that the UK would be soon be practically part of the European free trade area without having to accept freedom of movement and while still able to make its own trade deals (again, although no-one could explain how that would work).
I think Project Fear was right to criticise the second set of optimistists, wasn’t it also right to criticise the first? Calling Project Fear threatening and lying and calling it other names was not a sensible thing to do, in 2014 or 2016. To me, Project Fear seemed more like common sense, in both cases.
A second Scottish independence referendum would have the additional problem that it would involve a hard border across the middle of the island of Great Britain, since of course Scotland wants to join the EU, which England is leaving. I think this is an even more awkward problem than the problem of giving an independent Scotland power over its currency.
You can respond by accusing me of being negative about the UK (if you are a Brexiteer) or Scotland (if a Scottish Nationalist). I think the UK can be prosperous after Brexit, I think Scotland could be prosperous after independence, but I don’t actually think either of them would be as prosperous as they would have been had they stayed.
It is your right, and the right of all Scots, to say that your emotional attachment to an independent Scotland is so great that you are prepared to pay the economic price. Just as Brexiteers are entitled to say that they are so disenchanted by the EU they want out even if there is an economic cost of that. But both should be aware there is a price to creating borders and they shouldn’t call everyone who reminds them of that price threatening or lying.
If the UK gets Brexit and Scotland gets independence, I think it unfortunately likely that historically these will both be seen as the same kind of mistake, prompted by similar emotions. Perhaps both are going to happen. In that case I can only hope that the consequences are not too dire, for anyone.
Och, alias, you demonstrate the exceptionalism to which the author of this excellent piece refers when you write :-
“It is your right, and the right of all Scots, to say that your emotional attachment to an independent Scotland is so great that you are prepared to pay the economic price. Just as Brexiteers are entitled to say that they are so disenchanted by the EU they want out even if there is an economic cost of that. But both should be aware there is a price to creating borders and they shouldn’t call everyone who reminds them of that price threatening or lying.”
WE Scots are Europeans, and are being driven out of Europe by a Far Right English Nationalist band of xenophobes and carpetbaggers who are already making a killing on the markets.
There will be a border between England and the rest of the world on the 1st November 2019.
Scotland will be the continuer state, Member 28 of the EU, and we shall continue as before, freely travelling working, setting up businesses and retiring in 27 countries, as now.
You clearly have no idea about the intensity of the attacks on Scotland during Indyref1.
Osborne came North, and backed by Strictly Ed Balls and Danny (now ‘Sir) Alexander announced that England would ‘forbid’ Scotland using the £ post Independence, which of course was a load of nonsense, bluster, and a naked threat to damage an Independent Scotland’s economy if we had had the temerity to vote YES.
They lied to our pensioners, warning that the UK would stop paying their pensions…I could go on.
The Only ‘Nationalists’ threatening erecting borders are English; Brexit was Made in England.
You have no idea about the vicious levels of intimidation, threats, lies, and downright fascist vitriol that were rained down on Scotland by the English politicians, the MSM,and Broadcasters, ably aided and abetted by the ProudScotsBut Brit Nat Red Blue and Yellow Tories UP Here, Fifth Columnists who sold their souls for English gold, to paraphrase Burns.
Your language tells me everything I need to know alias.
When someone starts a sentence with ‘Don’t you feel..’ the answer is invariably ‘No’.
There are no parallels between Scotland’s Road to Self Determination, and the madness of Brexit.
You are the country erecting borders, setting up barriers, and ejecting Furriners, alias.
It is hardly hyperbole to suggest that you will be the USA’s Costa Rica in Europe, when the mighty US Carpetbaggers land at Tilbury with their Private Medical Insurance packages, and Baseball and Basketball franchises.
There is little ’emotion’ in my resolve for Scotland to return to Self Determination, alias.
It is the natural order of things.
Finally reflect on your own words, alias.
” I think this is an even more awkward problem than the problem { hard border between Scotland and England} of giving an independent Scotland power over its currency.”
We ask no country’s permission over which currency we shall adopt.
You are not in a position to ‘give’ Scotland anything, my dear friend.
@Jack, sorry, perhaps my use of the word “give” was ill-chosen, I apologise. However it remains the case that if the Rest-of-the-UK and Scotland were to share a currency, they will need a currency union. This is not likely to be easy to negotiate since both sides will (perfectly reasonably) want their own interests to be taken into consideration, but neither will want to grant the other a veto. Since Scotland would be European and the Rest-of-the-UK (you say) like Costa Rica, interests will diverge. If you want to dismiss all that as the lies of Project Fear, go ahead, but I think you’d be better off working on solutions.
(Personally I think it would be better to split the currencies, starting with a Bretton-Woods-style peg but gradually decoupling them. I think maybe the SNP is coming round to this point of view. But that wasn’t what they were campaigning for in 2014.)
Jack,
I was interested to hear that you have enjoyed the Brexit experience so much that you wish to start the process all over again between Scotland and the Rest of the UK (RoUK).
Which bits are you particularly looking forward to? Would it be the discussion of the divorce payment? Or the trade negotiations that you would need to undertake if you wish to continue trading with RUK? And what about the border issue? Presumably if you wish to remain in the EU then there would need to be a border to maintain the integrity of the internal European market and also of course there would need to be passport checks to ensure that Freedom of Movement into Scotland does not compromise the new RoUK immigration policy.
Would that be enough for you to relive the Brexit experience or are you perhaps hoping that the independence referendum gives rise to a marginal result in favour, say 52% to 48%? That way you and Mrs Sturgeon could campaign 3 years later for yet a further referendum on the basis that the previous result was marginal and people should be allowed to change their minds. Perhaps you can even hope that Shetlands and the Border Counties vote decisively for remaining in the UK so that they can campaign for independence from Scotland and rejoining of the UK. The possibilities are endless.
Interesting article…but the one bit that jumped out at me was your assertion that ‘there is no solution to the Scottish question in sight’.
Yes there is, and it’s blindingly obvious to an increasing number (now, apparently, the majority) of those who live in Scotland. It’s to become a normal independent country that can make its own choices on things like EU membership, which wars to fight (or not) and so on. Like pretty much every other country on the planet.
Alias I respect your emotional appeal but the choice must surely be for those of us who live here – and you’ll get over it..! And Scotland isn’t going anywhere – the ties between our nations will remain strong (just look at Scandinavia), and I suggest the relationship will be healthier as peers and neighbours rather than having one being dominant over the other (due to sheer weight of numbers).
@Chris: I appreciate your kind words.
“the choice must surely be for those of us who live here”. Of course it must. If 52% of Scots had voted for independence in 2014 I hope I would have been as much in favour of that democratic decision being carried through as the 52% decision in 2016.
If there is going to be a second independence referendum, then I hope at least it will learn from the mistakes of 2016. That means that civil servants (in London and Edinburgh) have to be neutral (and not just during a short purdah period). Laws on campaign funding have to be enforced during the campaign, or reformed so that they can be effectively enforced during the campaign. And if the result for a change to the status quo is between 50 and 60% there should be a second decisive referendum 12 months later. I don’t want the Scots to be kept in the UK against their will, but I don’t think we should begin the difficult process of disengagement unless we are sure that that is what the Scots want.
Dear Alias I agree wholeheartedly with Jack.
The fact that one country – England is the effective ruler of another country – Scotland – is a glaring anomaly. Westminster has an overwhelming majority of English MP’s. England has, most of the time, an overwhelming majority of Tory voters. Scotland has no such majority of tory voters, but time and again we have a Tory government, which we did not vote for, foisted upon us. As for oil, Norway invested the profits from that in a fund for the whole country – in Scotlands case, Thatcher wasted all that income, derived mainly from Scottish waters, on the de-industrialisation of the UK and the demolition of the mining industry. So much for your ‘better together’ economic arguments. Even smaller countries than Scotland, such as Iceland, are doing far better under self-rule than Scotland has under successive Westminster governments.
In more succinct form – take your union and stick it!
Jams O”Donnell. What about the Uk outside of London.! Did the north have have any say when Westminster ignored their plight when it was de-industrialised ?. When many raiway connections were lost as was Fishing. At least in Scotland there is a good amount of self rule which cannot be said for England outside of London.The snag is that we could all end up with little waring states .Kent, Essex Cornwall and upwards
Dear Mrs MV Cheek
The North is welcome to declare UDI and join as part of an independent Scotland (in EFTA). I doubt if Kent and Essex will ever feel like that . . . Cornwall . . . maybe. But there is very little prospect of England dissolving into little independent states, mores the pity. If they did, don’t see why they would ‘war’ with each other, and if they did maybe they could join the EU?
@jack collatin… ahh the old “move EU 27 for working, buisness /retirement….” -myth.
– it like takes 4 years in total immersion to have a mastering of the local language for a talented and motivated person for job interviews to be hired above the high unemployment EU side,. english is NOT the 1st language abroad anywhere, you will be EXPECTED to have a mastering of the local language to near mother tongue to get anywhere- high EU unemployment ( thats the reason why the UK is flooded with EU economic migrants btw) ever had experience with the tax office, or setting up a buisiness in france incidentally? ( i actually know a french company owner in larege industrial supplies, that relocates its stock in belgium , so as not to pay tax on unsold stock- can you believe it?- come the inventory)
– just a few pointers that holes your scottish nationalistic rant..
i shall buy extra boxes of popcorn to watch how it unfolds when Independant scotland joins the EU and has to adopt the Euro and the paychecks shrink overnight, cost of everything rises 20-30% like it did in France when they went from the franc to the Euro (dont believe the government/eu spin on this, i was there and saw it 1st hand) but hey, dont let facts get in the way..extra popcorn please!
@Jason: “– it like takes 4 years in total immersion to have a mastering of the local language for a talented and motivated person for job interviews to be hired above the high unemployment EU side,. english is NOT the 1st language abroad anywhere, you will be EXPECTED to have a mastering of the local language to near mother tongue to get anywhere”
Hi Jason, this might be true of France (I know very little about France) but I don’t think it is true of Germany, where I live. Almost everyone speaks English far far better than the majority of English speak any foreign language (are Scots better at languages? I don’t know) and employers are often unable to fill positions because no suitable person applies. In those circumstances, English speakers with the right qualifications and personality are in with a chance.
Dear me, everyone is moving about these days, Jack is suggesting we all move to Scotland (I hope not, I don’t want the Highlands to be as crowded as Essex), Jason is worried about employment prospects of Scots heading for France, and I am writing a recruiting advertisement for working in Germany.
@alias.. same as in switzerland.
i worked in 2005 in a large pharmaceutics company in the vaud area of Switzerland in the HQ and that is french speaking- of course, and there were English there that could speak French, but it is expected to be bilingual. Anyone who has multiple degrees, and doctorates in specialized fields can get hired there, and just about in any country in the world, USA,Canada, Australia, Switzerland , Get sponsorship, get working visas and residency, its irrelevant. as you state ” in with a chance”- chance or surefire? when you turn up at a German, french, spanish, or italian administration for just say, a car registration document, whats the chances of the person behind the desk being fluent in English? or indeed is prepared to make the effort?
If you are highly qualified ( a degree is nothing compared to the quals. some French i know have, yet still struggle to find employment with several masters, and doctorates)
with internationally recognised diplomes you can move anywhere, work permitting.
Myself after nearly 30 years living abroad in 3 countries, starting from the ground up- no sponsorship, no job to start with, no language skills apart from English- its as easy as the scottish gentleman reckons.. i await with abated breath on how all the scottish are doing moving to all the EU 27 running companies in say slovakia, Lithuania, poland, greece and showing the locals how its done.
Many years ago I worked in French ski resorts. I only needed enough French to take a basic drinks order to do my job, most bar staff couldn’t speak much French as they were all English Ski bums. I learnt quite a bit more French living there for four months although I’ve forgotten it now. I know people who work in the gaming industry and investment banking in France and all their work is done in English. I can’t really talk about other sectors it’s not completely true you need French to work in France.
@jack collatin… ahh the old “move EU 27 for working, buisness /retirement….” -myth.
– it like takes 4 years in total immersion to have a mastering of the local language for a talented and motivated person for job interviews to be hired above the high unemployment EU side,. english is NOT the 1st language abroad anywhere, you will be EXPECTED to have a mastering of the local language to near mother tongue to get anywhere- high EU unemployment ( thats the reason why the UK is flooded with EU economic migrants btw) ever had experience with the tax office, or setting up a buisiness in france incidentally? ( i actually know a french company owner in large industrial supplies, that relocates its stock in belgium , so as not to pay tax on unsold stock- can you believe it?- come the inventory)
– just a few pointers that holes your scottish nationalistic rant..
i shall buy extra boxes of popcorn to watch how it unfolds when Independant scotland joins the EU and has to adopt the Euro and the paychecks shrink overnight, cost of everything rises 20-30% like it did in France when they went from the franc to the Euro (dont believe the government/eu spin on this, i was there and saw it 1st hand) but hey, dont let facts get in the way..extra popcorn please!
@jack collatin… ahh the old “move EU 27 for working, buisness /retirement….” -myth.
– it like takes 4 years in total immersion to have a mastering of the local language for a talented and motivated person for job interviews to be hired above the high unemployment EU side,. english is NOT the 1st language abroad anywhere, you will be EXPECTED to have a mastering of the local language to near mother tongue to get anywhere- high EU unemployment ( thats the reason why the UK is flooded with EU economic migrants btw) ever had experience with the tax office, or setting up a buisiness in france incidentally? ( i actually know a french company owner in large industrial supplies sector, that relocates its stock in belgium , so as not to pay tax on unsold stock- can you believe it?- come the inventory)
– just a few pointers that holes your scottish nationalistic rant..
i shall buy extra boxes of popcorn to watch how it unfolds when Independant scotland joins the EU and has to adopt the Euro and the paychecks shrink overnight, cost of everything rises 20-30% like it did in France when they went from the franc to the Euro (dont believe the government/eu spin on this, i was there and saw it 1st hand) but hey, dont let facts get in the way..extra popcorn please!
Och, Jason, I love good wind up like the next man.
Save your witty trolls for the ‘next man’, why don’t you?
I have encountered the English abroad all over the world, even in ‘English speaking’ former colonies like Canada, America, and Australia.
There are currently 1.3 million Brits working/settled in the EU, who seem to stumble along, presumably by communicating either in loud slow English with accompanied Chirades (isn’t that a French word) sign language with bemused not very bright local French German and Italian peasants who are so thick that they have not mastered the Language of the Conquered World, English.
The arrogance of the Englishman abroad is legend.
As I say, Brexit was Made in England, and good luck to you all.
I have friends and relatives working and settled in Europe, and they seem to get by, and, oddly, spikka da linga of the country where they have chosen to work or settle.
I’d venture that ‘Ayear in Provence’ is one of your all time patronising fave page turners, Jason.
Only the English have a disparaging name for all other nations who are ‘not English’.
Krauts, Froggies, Dagoes, and nearer to home, Jocks (or Sweaty Socks) Micks,( or Paddies) and Taffs.
But as I say, good luck in your Fortress of Solitude come November.
Once you drive out all the immigrants who speak English with a funny accent, or insist on jabbering away in some foreign tongue on your ‘buses and subways, you will achieve England’s Whjte Morris Dancing ‘Lord Love a Duck’, ”Evenin’ All’ Wet Dream.
The slap of willow on leather, cricket on the village green on a perfect summer’s day. cucumber and cress sandwiches made by the wives of the Cricket Club Committee, washed down with a warm pint of Watney’s Red Barrel.
We’ll chuck some real food over the wall at Gretna when supplies run low. Promise.
@Jack: “Only the English have a disparaging name for all other nations who are ‘not English’.
Krauts, Froggies, Dagoes, and nearer to home, Jocks (or Sweaty Socks) Micks,( or Paddies) and Taffs.”
Now there’s a fascinating discussion. I can think of a few really rude words in German, but I don’t want to repeat them here. There is the N-word in various forms, and also a K-word used for persons of Turkish or Middle Eastern origin. But I think Jack will probably find most offensive that Germans often have great difficulty holding apart the meanings of “England”, “Great Britain” and “United Kingdom” 🙂
Also, English is certainly not the only language with rude words for the Germans! The French have quite a few and I expect Polish and Russians do too, as probably do fans of the Dutch football team.
“sign language with bemused not very bright local French German and Italian peasants who are so thick that they have not mastered the Language of the Conquered World, English” I don’t think there are any of those around here. Germans really do almost all know English. The problem is not sign language (which I’ve never needed so far as I can recall), but that if you want to learn German you have to persuade them to speak it.
Jason talks about car registration places in Switzerland wanting you to speak German. I can believe that, government authorities are about the only places left in Germany in my experience where they insist on German (and then not always). Fortunately the vocabulary you need for dealing with them is limited.
“I can think of a few really rude words in German, but I don’t want to repeat them here.” I should have mentioned that the wonderful German language offers another possibility which is commonly used: simply prefix the word for the nationality in question with “Scheiß-” (or something even ruder, if you have enough imagination).
Well, the French do call English people ‘les rosbifs” – the roast beefs 🙂
My Internet researches have revealed that the go-to German word for insulting the British is “Inselaffen” (island apes). I have to say I don’t recall ever hearing this word, but then I can’t ever recall the Scots being called Jocks or Welsh people Taffs either, except in novels. Perhaps I have moved in the wrong circles?
@Jack: “The slap of willow on leather, cricket on the village green on a perfect summer’s day. cucumber and cress sandwiches made by the wives of the Cricket Club Committee, washed down with a warm pint of Watney’s Red Barrel.”
Jack, I really enjoy debating with you, You make your point in a vigorous way but without getting personal or insulting.
However I think you are being unfair about many Leavers. Check out the articles by Lisa Mckenzie on this blog:
https://blogs.lse.ac.uk/brexit/2018/01/15/we-dont-exist-to-them-do-we-why-working-class-people-voted-for-brexit/
https://blogs.lse.ac.uk/brexit/2019/01/31/many-working-class-people-believe-in-brexit-who-can-blame-them/
I don’t see much Morris dancing and warm beer there. (Has anyone done a survey on Leave/Remain attitudes among Morris dancers or CAMRA members? I’m not so sure Leave would win.) I think the English people Lisa Mckenzie interviewed are not a million miles away in outlook from many Scots.
“Germans really do almost all know English. The problem is not sign language (which I’ve never needed so far as I can recall), but that if you want to learn German you have to persuade them to speak it.”
Just like your bluff Yorkshireman in Halifax when he encounters a Froggie on holiday in England.
He will insist on speaking in French so that he can improve his language skills?
“Scheiß”, alias.
I love the assertion, from native Englunders, that the citizens of every other nation is desperate to learn and speak English, especially when there is an English person around who plainly can’t be arsed learning the language of the country..
Encore une fois: ‘“Scheiß”, alias.
Be very careful about deductions you draw from Scotland. At the time of the debate and the Referendum in 2016 EVERY SINGLE Political Party in Scotland was encouraging people to vote Remain. There was no media or active public reasoning about what ‘remain’ meant in terms of political control, legal supremacy or what ‘socialism’ in the EU would mean in terms of distribution of wealth (from Scotland to Southern and Eastern Europe, not, as Scots assume, to Scotland from the rest of the EU). Despite all the pro-EU press and Political activity a whopping 30% of Scots voted to leave the EU.
The surprise here is that it was not unanimous.
Had there been a proper debate about Brexit…in terms of what Federalism would mean in practice, and what the pros and cons of Leave would be economically, socially. legally and in defence and foreign policy, then I expect a great many Scots would have voted to Leave.
The main pull for Scots was the SNPs dogma that ‘remain’ meant Scotland would receive cash from the EU. The other rationale was that Scotland needs more people. No one explained that migrants ‘use Scotland’ and drift south to South-Eastern England to live, where there are bigger populations of their own countrymen.
In terms of ‘the market’ politicians and the media did not explain that the main market for Scotland was and is England – very little gets exported to the EU.
Yet Brexit was a ‘numbers game’ and the Leave campaign rightly concentrated its bigger bang for its buck in higher populated areas of England. The Media was, and still is, ‘remain-orientated’ and it is very sad that there not better balance. In every area of life there are good arguments, given the right political leadership, that things will improve after Brexit and there are similar arguments that could be put for Remain (though very little was ever said about the benefits of remain in England. Certainly there didn’t seem to be arguments for how remain could IMPROVE life; more the status quo.
You overlooked quite an important caveat to your thesis: Wales voted to leave. So they’re a part of this as well. Don’t lump them together with Scotland and Northern Ireland.
This is a LSE blog post and so it’s right that we are concerned with the causes of things and understanding the evolution of the challenges we face today. The reality is it, Brexit, is happening. So lovely critical big brains.. please take over the wheel and chart the course. Forget the log.
Wales voted to leave!
The author is pedantic about the term British, as this part of Europe is often referred to as the British Isles.
As a Scot living in England I’ve always cherished the Union: we’ve been a highly successful team for over 300 years. Our European integration is a treasure. Brexit is driven overall by a powerful combination of older, less well educated (and therefore less well equipped to think logically) English masses exploited by elitist plutocrats and populists. It can’t possibly end well and I think, for me, Europhile Scottish nationalism is sadly my only recourse.
The Five Stages of Empire – a model of the growth and decline of civilizations – can provide a way both to understand history’s ‘big picture’ and to accurately assess current and future geopolitical environments. To illustrate the influence and power projection possessed by an empire – statistical probability distribution of data around an average. Empires are not all the same, of course, but the majority of them exhibit a similar distribution, peaking at about 60-70 percent along with their life cycles. The Five Stages of Empire, then, are as follows:
1 regionalization;
2 ascension to an empire;
3 maturity;
4 overextension;
5 decline and legacy.
I would estimate at an educated guess that Britain is in the 5th and final stage of a former Empire and what is left, might be considered, the legacy. How that legacy is written and what will be remembered about Britain. It can have a lasting effect for decades to come.
The fear is; will Britain devolve into a fascist failed state?
What often follows the decline of a former Empire can best be viewed from the examples on the continent, for example, it would appear that when the great Empires of Europe fell. The nations contracted and became inward-looking. In Spain, Franco, In Germany Hitler, In Italy, Mussolini and so on.
My assertion is that Britain has all of the key indicators of a nation that is deep in trouble with itself, in turn, the nation will head towards a dark place in its history. Inevitably.
Yes, Brexit is an expression of English nationalism, but your error in describing it is the same error that has led to it.
everyone feels the Scots can wear their kilts, carry their flag, be Scottish. Similarly so can the welsh and Irish (they also love a bit of martyrdom as foisted on them by their politicians). However, if you have an English flag you are a racist, a hooligan, an imperialist. The left want England to apologise for all our past ambitious colonialism. But the Scots, Welsh and Irish who also were involved, also benefited, also committed the worst excesses don’t have to. In other words the English have become bored of saying sorry, not having an identity they are allowed to wear proudly. Brexit would not have happened if they had ben allowed too. To that extent the Scots,Irish, Welsh and apologists (Lib Dems and Labour) have no one to blame but themselves.
Im a remainer.